Mana/HP Rine and massing L1 is good unless of course you're against Volt/Mech/DM/LM.
Its good grinding and sometimes weakens enemy.

I second Spinlock's sentiment, something just feels off about M2 and M3. Honestly, it might just be dissonance from having M3 in the title where previously updates would be indistinguishable, or it might be burnout or something, but playing on M3 right now feels kinda 'chewing gum and prayer'-y. I mean, what was the point of the reaver nerf, honestly? I do disagree that MT is a better version though, I tried going back to it and it just feels completely broken, especially when I see rine with 60 damage and 2500 hp before the first dawn thanks to having 3 assims. We'll see when 1.5 comes out.


Some sort of dynamic assimilator system might fare better. I cringe whenever someone on my team demands that I do assims, because it really is pointless to cap them in M3. It's kind of an advantage to have the opposing team place down assims, because nobody bothers guarding them and they end up being a 10 mineral loss.

On the flip side, in MT, if we manage to cap mid, it's gg. I can get three assims up before night, and from that I can literally cap assims faster than they can be taken down from the revenue stream, and that's with a char like zealot who can actually take down assims. You give me a fight against dm, lm, and assassin, I don't even need to bother cannoning up.

Besides the issue of cannoning up assims (which can only be broken by investing in HP, or get 50 armor ups), the way assims work (and actually, the way all buildings work) isn't balanced across the classes. Some classes are much better at taking down assims than others. As I said before, buildings in general need to be reviewed.

EDIT: For the record, I have done extensive testing on buildings, but all of those games were pubber games. Take that as you will.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2009, 5:06 am by DumbMarine.

My suggestion with the buildings is simply to make them mostly shields. It's a very obvious balancing solution, though it can't apply to the temple.

The reaver nerf was because Reavers were and still are too powerful. +10 per upgrade, which is actually +40, is completely over the top, and an L2 spam mage is unapproachable.

It has some mitigating factors, for one, if you have HP upgrades, its significantly less of a problem, two, it's really hard to get the ups and mana necessary to "spam" it, and three, the light mage has split upgrades, making it a lot harder to get the damage to good levels. Plus, as it is, the initial damage of reavers is terrible.

Not only that, but it does somewhat reduced damage to people running away, and certain classes can mess up the scarabs (mine & rine, dropship & bat) as well as spawns just eating the shot.

Plus, once you use your mana on reavers, you're toast when mutant runs up with a lurker bomb or volt gets you in a stunlock, or hydra drops a couple of mutas on you, or...

Spamming HP and damage is the only counter to spawned reavers unless you're Assault/Assassin. Marine and Warrior are the only class that have that luxury as a standard route, though.

A LM using reavers usually won't get more than a couple of Protoss Ground upgrades, leaving plenty of money for the reaver damage. The initial damage of 440 for a level 2 spell is not even close to "terrible." It does half damage if you're moving away from it, but 220 damage for 50 mana still isn't bad, and that's with zero upgrades, and provided that you're running from the attacks. A smart LM just plays defense and levels using this right outside his cannons. And he can send all of his OWN team's spawns to the same area, and splash kill them with the reavers. Even a single scarab with zero upgrades against a moving spawn does enough damage to kill it and anything near it, which in case you don't play melee is an enormous zone. On top of that, he's killing all of his own spawns, leaving you little or nothing to exp off of to even hope to keep pace with him. It's a ridiculously powerful strategy; only slightly nerfed by reducing the upgrade by 3.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2009, 5:42 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Leave the moderating to me, please.

Given in the early game a LM needs to save every bit of mana to run away, spending 50 mana is a huge investment. Doing 220 damage (440 doesn't happen unless they're pointblank, and then it's on par with the L1 anyway) is peanuts for what you put into it.

It does rape spawns though, and since it splashes it kills allies, which multiplies the LM's grinding ability. This is completely unrelated to damage, though, and more related to the fact that redirecting spawns is broken and retarded. It's also difficult to pull off if you're contested, as it drains a huge amount of mana to do so and you really can't afford to keep running back to the heal as LM is slow as hell. That part could use some looking into (although the LM can also just storm).

As for spawned reavers, they're insanely broken. Nerf them for all I care, in MT their use completely dominates certain classes (DM, summoner, medic), and is pretty much a guaranteed waste of time against other classes (mech, assault). You can rush for them early game and completely barrel through cannons without contest until they reach critical mass and are pretty much unstoppable. If you get them late game, they're little more than feed. Honestly though, the same is true of most of the spawns: goons are similar and 50 minerals less, and, assault has a harder time against their ranged attack. Firebats make feeding impossible for certain classes, little more than waste time for others. Do whatever with spawned reavers.

I've tried dedicating myself to an L2 LM, and it's harder than it sounds. You have zero endurance in pvp, and when spawns upgrade, you quickly fall on the XP chart. More often than not, you don't actually have enough mana to deal the finishing blow, although your opponents don't know that and would rather not risk dying for nothing. The only real advantage to going reavers over L1 is that you aren't completely raped over by anything with range, as far as damage goes, you would do a fairly similar amount with L1 or L3 (although L3 is pretty fail as a spell imo)

I agree, the only route possibly for a LM is mana, so reaver spamming isn't too difficult. I don't feel that reducing the upgrade damage by 3 is a huge nerf, but i do feel that the reavers do very high damage for a splash, ranged, 50 mana attack. Even so, I personally think that other characters have a higher priority for need of balance. Also for battletanks, they feel like the same type of strategy and edge as a summoner. They have great map control and chance to siege, but it all depends on the enemies facing more on the actual skill. A summoner lings either rape or have no chance, depending on the enemy, which is the same for the battletanks.

I don't think its possible to be such an idiot when playing as LM. If it happens to someone then they deserve it. I mean if u have only enough mana to use on reavers and then USE it on reavers is so stupid. The only way you can justify is if that the enemy is at low health or your next to your bases canons. I always use reavers only when i can cast my L1 at least once.

Yea LM has split upgrades, so does Archer and Mutant. It all depends on what your going to rush for. Your also saying its hard to spam L2's (basiclly ALL L2's since they all cost the same). I don't think they ment casting it 2-3 times and then still being able to use other spells. Personally I like to combo my L2 with L1 to create a mini Mech L4 effect.

That's true, i use L1 for defense, while L2 is for offense. Using LM's L2 with only 50 mana is the players own judgement.

Alright lets recap:
Assualt - lv1combo, lv2, lv3
medic - lv3 combo, Lv4combo
Warrior - Lv3(total gg reavers)
assasain - Lv3
Mech - Lv1, Lv3(His exp soon dwarfs summoner's), Lv4(at temple)
Spec Ops - Lv4
LM - Lv2, Lv4(see mech)
DM - can still help out by cursing heros that might be guarding it.
Mutant - Lv3, Lv4(see mech)
Volt - Lv2? can lure for a while into cannons
Archer Lv1pumped, Lv4(if you got the hp, or at temple)
and lets not forget cloaked and invinc. attacks cause them to just give up on their destructive path to your temple.

Yet somehow reavers are totally broken and unstoppable(after like 5 nerfs, when they have actually been very beatable since the second nerf)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2009, 5:44 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Removal of flame and/or flamebait

Yeah, I'll admit the LM is going to have tons more mana than mutant and archer. Nevertheless, you guys are getting too hung on the number and ignoring the circumstances. LM's only viable attack against ranged classes is his L2. LM is significantly more mana dependent that most other classes (Assassin is too). When you get to the point where you can spam reavers and have them do damage (which takes a while, probably a bit more time than it takes Medic to get L4), you get mutants rushing in and dropping lurker bombs, and volt giving you chain bear hugs, and assault being a dick with tear gas, and...

If you try to fight LM without structuring your upgrades to counter his reavers, well, yeah, of course you're fucked. How's that different from any other class?

LM is a glass cannon. I don't know if he has the lowest HP off the top of my head, but he's very fast to vanish if someone opens up on him. Maybe we should keep his power in line with other L2s, like assassin's, mutant's, warrior's, and volt's (maybe, dunno with the nerf now). You spam those, it's gg.

Whatever, though, LM isn't necessarily unbeatable, but the same is true of medic. Lets get some replays in this, I don't think you're gonna see my point and vice versa without some examples.

Honestly, I don't know what this is supposed to highlight, but it was such an amazing comeback it has to be broken.

EDIT: For those who don't have an hour, it ends up being a LM victory over assassin and summoner, they make the mistake of taking down the warp gates, so assassin has to race my skyrocketing XP while I sit at the temple, which gets put into building spawns. By the first night, my temple is at 33% hp, by the second night, there's reavers and goons all over their base and my temple is cannoned up so tight that the assassin can't take it all down.

It has some highlights of L2, the summoner was actually really good at micro, and about half the time my L2 didnt actually kill any lings. Of course, at the same time, half the time my L2 did splatter his entire army. These skirmishes didn't happen very often though, as the assassin rushed L3 or something and I had to temple camp by the end of the second day.

Attachments:

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 19 2009, 7:18 pm by DumbMarine.

I assiming the whole map when your stuck at your temple is a definite counter. I wonder if the summoner was all that attentive. I don't see why he couldnt harass your extra building, especially considering your lv2 will splash w/e building his ling is next to.

Sounds pretty tight but for somereason the dl link isn't working for me

They did not have the money necessary to start a mining operation once the first gate went down. I doubt that would have helped anyway, given the slow assim rate in M3. And even if they could start it, getting the money to cap the map isn't instant.

The summoner did try rather hard to get the buildings before they finished. He managed to knock down my pylon with DS and do a number to one of my CCs. Note that I do also have psi storm, I don't have to use L2 to ferret out lings. Also note that once they started pumping out reavers, the lings didn't stand a chance. The assassin did a fair job at taking down the pylons, but they only cost 15 min and I was easily outracing him. I don't think it would have mattered if he had taken out the cores at that point, since there were already a fair amount of spawns on the field and the summoner could do dick all to stop the onslaught.

Also, note that occasionally my spells would detect and attack the assassin at night. It might have been possible to kill him at night with my l2 or l4. Bug or emergent gameplay? D:

Assault: Yes.
Medic: Can counter if he has high damage allies. Requires spending L4 to kill reavers... which is not going to put you ahead.
Warrior: Most rarely get L3, if it neutrals reavers that's another counter.
Assassin: Yes. (During the night, anyway.)
Mech: You're going to have to cast L1 4-5 times to take down each reaver. Have fun with that. L3 is viable, if he's gotten it and a ton of mana, which most don't. If he's sitting at temple trying to counter reavers, you've already lost. L4 won't do much either, manawise.
Spec Ops: With L4? Lol.
LM: Has to be careful not to die while casting, can obviously be a good counter given the enormous damage. Again, if you're defending reavers at temple, you've already lost unless you have something doing equal damage or destroying the reaver spawns.
DM: Useless.
Mutant: I'd be surprised if you could get two reavers with L4; definitely not mana cost effective. L3 is powerful if you get close enough, provided you don't die running into the reaver cluster.
Volt: I don't think L2 lures spawns. Not sure if L3 neutrals reavers.
Archer: Needs to get too close to do damage with mutas well. HP required, which makes mutas less effective against a unit that already has a ton of armor.
Summoner: Useless.

So that's 2-3/12 classes that can effectively counter, and 3-4 that can counter if you sit in the heal and rely on reavers for all of your experience. They give a lot, but it's not that much. This isn't even taking into account that any smart team that gets reavers is going to be right next to them blasting back at you or stunning you when you come within reaver range, and the reavers will have pounded through your front door in no time.

I don't feel a team should have to pick their heroes thinking "if they get reavers, one of us has to be able to counter them." The hard counters are rarely played units, except for the Warrior. In 2v2, or after a teammate has been eliminated from a 3v3, a lot of games can be ended simply with reavers if a team knows this. I still feel they are overpowered, and though there are equally or more serious issues in the game, I wanted to make that clear.

assault's Lv2 or Lv3 spell (i forgot which one) kill spawn units, would it work on the reavers?

Both works, and yes, but no exp is given.

Faz- and Dumbmarine.. If the game is so "broken", then I don't understand why you like it so much, it was "broken" from the start.

I liked using the hard counter. It makes you think before you play. It makes the ppl who can think of a counter and know the game well win, even if their skills are minimal. Reaver (added by moose) is a great idea. It can handle certain late game heroes, to counter them if they were dominating. I just wish there were other counters for the ones that aren't countered by the reavers. Oh and, if your teammate died, you kinda deserve to die. Always think first... This is why the outcome of this game is always unknown, especially if people play random heroes. You find out new stuff and it can be overpowered or underpowered... I think that this is the best balance =O.. to have something that's "OP" at some times, and "UP" at others... which means u really got to think before u do anything.. And if the other team somehow was able to counter all of you, your team, and your counters/anti-counters, then they deserve to win .... oooorr maybe u were just not thinking hard enough.. or you've missed the chance when you were still low level to level up sm other stuff...

yeahh life's harsh.. your decisions is crucial.. isn't that what I said in the briefings?... and anyways, I've already nerfed the reaver's HP to 700...

Quick answer, most people don't know how broken TS actually is. Honestly, if you removed the probe, the majority of people would only miss the assimilator. Even FaZ- didn't know about the shield battery[medic spawner].

It still happens to me in a lot of games where opponents won't even bother acknowledging the probe. You'll note in the replay above I listed that the probe literally turned the game 180 for me, which shocked the hell out of my opponents. Imagine if I had a teammate in that game instead of a feeder!

Full disclosure, my starting build in TS before M2 is to get the probe, run for an easy base cap (usually middle), use the level from capping to get 2 assims, get a third level, get two more assims, and from there the minerals will fairly quickly start to exceed my ability to build assimilators with them. Barring my teammates doing something really dumb like upping spawn number or dark orb feeding, it's a near-guaranteed success. The only time I have lost with the strategy is when my opponents do the same thing, and they're better at it. It really saps the main fun of the game when victory isn't wrought from expert level micro, using your unique abilities in an inventive way, and complimenting your teammates strategies. The PvP is really satisfying. But, no, all of that means nothing if you don't keep up with your opponent's assimilator count. Probe management isn't the fun part of the game. It's an extra dimension, sure, but given by the number of people who underutilize it, it's a dimension most players don't care about, when it can often be the most important dimension in TS.

I agree with FaZ-'s sentiment, you shouldn't be constantly worrying about countering reavers. That makes several team setups simply unviable. What, if we get randomed summoner, dark mage, and archer, we should just lose no matter who our opponents are? That's stupid.