This is why we're leaving it to the community to elect a map as best in the 2009 RPG Challenge, rather than using judges.

And because I'm participating.

Did you guys come up with the scores as a group, or did you each do your own scores and then compare them to each other and do some kind of average or compromise?

Also, based on the criticism it seems like a lot of it was based on a misunderstanding of certain features of the map. For example, it doesn't matter if you can kill the air unit since that was supposed to be taken into account in the balance, because the main target is the actual hero. If the hero dies then the player loses. The fact that air units can't be attacked by certain heroes is a tactical move a player can use. The same thing applies to the arbiter's recall and the dark templar. Effective use of recall could make all the difference.

But those things are due to my laziness in putting those things in (note the briefing and unit descriptions, or lack thereof, ingame). You're right to mark me down on it, but my concern is that due to pigy's relationship to t-virus and eteft and his bias towards Lost City, that he took more interest in Lost City and was more eager to figure out how it worked and to be accepting of not knowing how things worked at times, because he would always have t-virus and eteft to guide him.

Now I'm not sure to what extent t-virus and eteft actually talked to pigy, but it seems like it could have been a lot. Such communication, familiarity, and bias towards Lost City would eliminate the opportunity for it to get marked down for lack of direction in the map itself.


Also, I'm not saying that BD should have won. I think LC should win just because they probably put more effort into the map than I did. Regardless, I still question the qualification of Pigy as a judge and his handling of the contest.

Grown men do act like this about things like SC mapping contests that no one cares about. Why? It's a matter of pride. Even in things you do "half-assed," it is still something you worked on and made that you are proud of (in a "half-assed" sort of way) that you want to be judged fairly in a contest.
Devilesk feels like he wasn't treated fairly, and his response is completely reasonable. Because this contest wasn't too intensely serious, you had lax on the late submission with an arbitrary deduction, there were just a few friends judging it, etc. Which is fine, since it is not that big of a contest. In the same way, though, that causes the person in second-place to feel cheated out of a completely fair evaluation.
What am I getting at? Just to see where he is coming from with empathy, and for everyone to try to keep the flaming down

Fritfrat is pretty much right in judging what I feel. I'd also like to add that I really have no problem with BD being called half-assed, because it partly was. However, that was mainly towards the end when I lost the desire to really finish it up or at least get it ready for a submission.

The phrase half-assed becomes an issue when you don't consider the fact that the map is incomplete and you simply disregard any potential it could have as a finished map and you also start to use that against me as an overall mapmaker. The standards of a finished map shouldn't be applied to an incomplete map, because the fact it is incomplete means that it lacks what a complete map should have. If you look at the topic I did most of the work over the course of two days. However, based on the production history of most of my maps I take a lot longer to actually release a final version and by that time I make sure to finish completely the stuff I half-assed in the beginning.

Anyway, as I said before the results and criticism come as no surprise to me. I stated that when I submitted the map.

Pigy certainly made no secret of running around Battle.net announcing the scores he was planning to give each map. This being before he had played any of them. It isn't too hard to guess which ones he was going to rate very low and which one he was going to rate very highly.

Not that it is any surprise that LC won. It might be in the bottom 1% of all maps ever made, but it's almost certainly better than anything that gets submitted to these contests.

It seems to me that maybe judges SHOULD be selected. I'm new here, I don't know Pigy_G, I didn't even play any of the maps, but lets just say, hypothetically, that he is as much of a problem as people are saying he is. It might be in your best interests to not let people volenteer, but rather hand select compitent judges. And above that, I think the letting the public judge the maps, which I've come to understand is what you're doing for the RPG contest, is an even better idea. I would also consider having a FINAL cut off date to avoid controversy. No one wants to lose to someone who could have not even been included in the competition if the final date was actually final.

I'm sorry man, but I'd have to say no matter how much potention a map might theoretically have due to it being unfinished, it definitely shouldn't be applied to the same standards, it shouldn't even be submitted. It especially shouldn't be a suprise when it doesn't do great in the judging.

Ugh so much to reply to.


I see you fail to mention, devilisk. That I also tested your map and provided feedback which you ignored via battle.net.


Um, no I never ran around battle.net announcing the scores. And by the way. We had the scores ready a week before we posted. We only waited because of the week late rule. Echo told me he was going to submit something, but would have got 7 points deducted automatically for being late. We decided to let him try to submit. He didn't.



However me, kaias and Lethal did not take scores indiviually and add them or anything. We went through each category of each map and decided as three what the map score should rank. There was Rarely a time when we disagreed by more then a couple points

It seems to me that maybe judges SHOULD be selected. I'm new here, I don't know Pigy_G, I didn't even play any of the maps, but lets just say, hypothetically, that he is as much of a problem as people are saying he is. It might be
Lethal_Illusion is probably in the top three most respected mappers on SEN. Kaias is excellent with triggers and helping out. They both were more then qualified to judge. I judged because I was the host of the contest. I'll admit there are much more qualified people I could have replaced with myself. However I felt it improper to not be seen judging at all.


This was because we originally had not said the 7 Week rule. And I didnt want anyone thinking they could enter in a month later after the contest.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jan 13 2009, 1:49 pm by Pigy_G.

The contests are a joke. No one takes them seriously and in the event that someone does its because they don't realize the contests are a joke. Its a rare occasion indeed (read: never) when a map being submitted is actually worth playing.

Since its a joke and no one submits real maps, the judges are never going to be real or competent either.

I submitted it without intending on actually winning. I find it amusing that it did as well that it did against other maps. The contest would also have been quite pathetic without my submission. Three map submissions total and Reindeer Breeding in second place? Lol.

You did not provide any feedback that I can recall. And if you did then it must have been after the map was submitted. I was not going to resubmit a late map because of your mysterious point penalty. I'm sure you also fail to accurately describe the kind of involvement you had with LC prior to the deadline.

Given the close nature of the scores even just one occurrence of a disagreement could drastically change the results.

The contests are a joke, but at least when Moose ran and judged them they were run well. Moose knows how to judge and his point system worked well.

I would like to note that the only people responding negatively to the judges decisions are people who do have biased views against me. I find some irony in that; however, the reason i believe we won is because regardless of glitches, we still put more effort into our contest entry then any other map. Why are you people trying to get the judges to change their minds, it's all in the past.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, too bad only the judges opinions matter.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Only the judges opinions matter for this contest, but the contest itself doesn't even matter .